Head First: Rubber Meets Road

Wednesday, August 03, 2005

Rubber Meets Road

I hate my church. I hate the mindlessness of our routine. I hate that we don't have any goals. I hate the way we have to act as if everything's always ok. I hate the shallowness of our fellowship. I hate the way Pastor still calls that building "God's House." I hate hearing the Lord addressed as "Thee" during prayer. I hate the consumer mentality that exists, even in a mediocre service like ours. I hate hearing the same freakin' sermon every Sunday. I hate that we piss away 90% of our income building more monuments to ourselves and making ourselves comfortable while missions giving is in the hole. I hate that the Youth Ministry has to fully fund itself. I hate the religious-ness that dwells there. I hate the suspicion and mistrust that's the product of our refusal to be open and honest.

Dorse, why don't you get the hell out of there?

"Community" is too trite a word. That's my family. I love the 88-year old lady who embraces me with tears and says "I pray for you every day." I love the other old gal who tells me I'm handsome and she loves me like a son. I love my good friend, who's caught in the middle of the same bullshit I am, but who still hasn't given up. I love the teens, who crowd around me, just to hang out, too cool to come right out and say "We love you," but I get the message. I love the people on the worship team, who didn't complain (much) when I pushed them to try new things. I love the adult Sunday School teacher, my mentor, a true scholar, a deep thinker who has nothing to gain by pouring himself into me. I love the guy from the men's group, who said to me, "Nobody develops perseverance by giving up. Be strong." I love the dozen people who give extra offerings to help the Youth Group. I love all the people who sent me cards and left messages of encouragement on my voicemail. Most of them don't know what's going on. Not all of them would agree with me, anyway. But they all love me.

And, oh God, I love them.

51 comments:

da said...

While i'm not the cursing type, I do love your attitude toward your church. It sounds like the congregation is great but maybe the leadership is a little off. Have you thought about speaking to your pastor and if you have spoke with him taking another fellow brother about your concerns (obviously with prayer and Grace)? Paul talks about how to take an issue with a brother and it seems to be a big help. I'm sure your pastor would listen to your concerns if not having a fellow brother that you and him respect may help (with prayer). Just a thought. I will be praying for you and your church and the leadership. Church must focus on missions, young people and the salvation message with discipleship. May your pastor and your congregation follow Christ's lead. I have been involved with 2 splits and I know that is worse than what you are going through so I can relate to your situation. God bless you and your church. :)

jeff said...

Okay, I'm hesitant to comment on this blog, just because I'm a little closer to it than others here.

But I am moved as I read these 2 distinct paragraphs; the hate paragraph & the love paragraph. (specifically because I've dealt with similar feelings in my own church.)

For me, I realized that the top paragraph is really none of my business. Of course, we all have a responsibility to be..., wel to be responsible. But ultimately, we do not answer for that. The leadership does. (okay... okay... I'm naive and misguided and all that.)

But to me, the Christian life IS about that 2nd paragraph. Why do you think those ladies hug you and tell you how freakin' HOT you are? Believe it or not, its not because they want to molest you between the responsive reading and communion. It's because they (as oldtimers) understand that church is all about people loving people, not bureaucracy (that's a hard word to spell... dang!).

Why do you think those teens hang out with you? Because they see something in you (freedom, liberty, Jesus...) that they really need, but are too cool to ask for.

You say you hate your church but you love the people. Then it is apparent to me that your definitions are misplaced, since the church IS the people.

Yeah, its easy for me to judge you situation, being 150 miles away from it. Yeah, my church is different... I'm okay with the Pastor and struggle with some of the people...

But the bottom line is, what are you called to do? (whether in or out of the church) My advice is, settle that question and do it. (Ecc. 12:13-14)


...so I got THAT going for me, which is... nice!

dorsey said...

"I have been involved with 2 splits and I know that is worse than what you are going through..."

I don't mind being condescended to, but you'll have to use better logic than that. I have begged God to let me leave. A split would have been far, far easier than staying has proven to be. At least both sides would be rid of their respective thorns. Indeed, a number of people have already left. They took the easy road, and now have no avenue to achieve unity. No, persevering is far more difficult, but I believe it will bear far more fruit in the body. Unity is possible. It is imperative.

btw, I didn't curse.

da said...

I wasn't trying to be condescending at all. I was trying to say that I understand what you are going through and that we both went through or are going through bad things in the church. I'm sorry if you thought I was condescending that was not the heart of my post. I will pray for you and your church. May God bless you. Pray for me and my wife. Our church is trying to find a new pastor.

btw, I consider s-words and the like differently than you but we shouldn't divide over that. In an attitude of kindness I mentioned that. Please don't take it as harsh that was not at all the intent.

Steve said...

Dorsey... Appreciate the honesty. Very nice. I need to try that sometime. Maybe I will.

Being in your current situation to some extent (of course who can ever say that they have walked in another person's shoes - unless they are that person) I understand the dichotomy of your feelings. Love and hating something at the same time is very difficult line to walk.

However, a church split isn't a walk in the park either. I wouldn't venture to say it is harder then what you are in the midst of because, again, I am not in your situation.

I was involved in a church split. I was part of a church staff and one Sunday morning we stood in front of the entire congregation of 500 and one by one all six of us resigned. (Long story - but I was caught up in a power struggle - and I regret the decision I made). We took half the people with us and it was a combination of hard and stupid all in one.

Splitting was totally unneccessary (hope it doesn't come to that for you)...but so is staying in a situation that possibly has no hope of changing. Unless of course the things you love are more powerful then the things you hate. Either way, love and hate are opposite sides of the same coin...passion. Sounds like you have a passion for the place you call "family".

bergevpi said...

Please don't hate THE church. THE church is the people that fill the steeple bro. And we are all sinners at one time or another.

jeff said...

Dorse, Steve... this is some wide-open sharing!

Sometimes on these blogs, we all get so busy talking about the church, or Christianity, or just stuff, that we forget about the true necessity in this walk; the freedom to be open enough to bear one anothers burdens and lift one another up. I forget that sometimes. (I'm too busy trying to sound smart, or deep or something). Forgive me for lacking that sensitivity in my earlier post.

Guys, I appreciate your willingness to be open. It's helpful when someone "get's it".

dorsey said...

"(I'm too busy trying to sound smart, or deep or something)"

It's because our mother always liked me better, isn't it?

jeff said...

No, it's probably because I watched cartoons while you cut grass.

Sincerely,
TBFKAP
(the brother formerly known as Prince)

da said...

I get it: my guess is that Jeff is the younger brother. Am I right? I'm the oldest of two in my family and I think I'm 99% sure on this. I might be wrong. :)

Dorsey and Jeff you both are in my prayers. May God bless you and your particular churches. :)

Kc said...

I’ve been blessed reading these comments. Dorsey I’m sure you know your heart but based on what I read it seems that anger is what you feel, not hatred. That is an expected emotion where love is concerned and results from being hurt. Hatred defines the act of destruction that follows the decision to reject love just as love defines the act of edification that result from the decision to follow Jesus. I don’t see anything destructive in your attitude; to the contrary I see great love. I will pray for you and all of us who love and hurt. Thank you for your honesty and openness.

dorsey said...

Don't look too deeply for meaning here. The hate/love thing was simply a literary device to illustrate the paradoxical nature of our corporate walk in much the same way as we struggle individually with the contradictions of our humanity.

I can just as easily say that I love the transforming power of Christ in me, but I hate the "me" that always wants to get in the way. Yet somehow, I manage to stay together. To me, the parallels are profound.

da said...

I totally agree, Dorsey. :)

Jason said...

Okay, emotions are shared, a problematic church, heavy tension between love and hate, fine, but when non-Christians read this blog, the only thing they will see is the cursing. Yeah, we have liberty in Christ. No I am not a legalist. But, dude, why raise clean-mouth / dirty-mouth questions unnecessarily.

If you feel the liberty to use words that our society has deemd curse words and you also are part of Christ's family, great, just do your cursing in private. Don't make it tougher on the rest of us who are trying to reach the lost.

Said with love for a brother and a true (I'm in it too) understanding of your blog.

dorsey said...

So it's ok to curse (which I didn't) in private, but not in front of "the lost?" Sorry, I'll pretend to be more perfect so the lost will want to be more like me. I don't know how things work on your site, but here, being real is a prerequisite, and it doesn't have to be pretty. Don't hijack the thread with tangential remarks.

Son of many preachers said...

Dorsey,

Wow. I am digging your vibe, and share your angst. Though I have similar experiences, your story is yours: own it, live it, love it. And you are bravely sharing it: the good, the bad and the ugly.

I am so not offended by "naughty" or "bad" words, as if any word could be either.

As a Christian, I really believe our duty is to listen to the hearts as we are lead of the Spirit, and not play "parse the bad words" as we go.

That said, if for example, someone had a bad car accident outside my home, and they came to my door and said, "I need a f*cking bandage," my duty would be to respond to the need. Get the person some medical attention, not stand there are fuss because he used a "bad" word! Pulleeze.

Jesus would only do the same. He ministerd to people with needs, as he found them.

Soemtimes I want to tell the Church, love me for who I am-- at least Jesus does.


Thanks for keeping it real! We need more safe spaces to be who we are, as we are, and not feed our need to look like who we think the world needs to see us as. I'm too tired to play that role anymore...

Jason said...

My concern is not a hijak of the thread, but an issue that seriously needs to be addressed among believers.

This is the blog of a believer not an unbeliever. If it were, the use of salty language would not raise my first eyebrow.

The gripe is not that it is more pious to use this language in private, but not in public. You seem to think that realness necessitates the ugly not be couched in euphemistic language. Instead of BS, you might say, "load of garbage." Just as real, without the word.

What I am getting at is that we believers need not set up obstacles in front of unbelievers that do not have to be there. This kind of language is one of them, no matter who defines them as "bad" or "naughty." Paul writes, "Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear" (Eph. 4:29 ESV).

jeff said...

You people who make an issue where there is no issue make me sick! I am reminded of the Pharisees, who watched Jesus to see if He would do a miracle on the Sabbath.

No matter how wonderful the miracle, they never got the significance of it because they were too caught up in and blinded by their legalism.

Instead of realizing that someone here is expressing the reality of the Christian walk, you, like the Pharisees, are hung up on the word, "bullshit".

I'm sure you're a wonderful "witness" and a "light in the darkness" to all those who login to this blog, and see your judgemental, condescending and downright hypocritical spirit.

My suggestion is to spend less time jagging-off with your religious rules and regulations, and spend more time listening to God.

The Bible doesn't say that the world will know Jesus is the Son of God because we don't say certain Words. It says they will know it when we are one (John 17:20-23).

Not to mention that Jesus said, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone" (John 8:7) (not that we're even discussing "sin"...)

And, "Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye." (Mt. 7:1-5)

Get a clue, dude!

If you don't like something in a post, the little "X" in the upper corner of your screen will alleviate you from any further pain. Otherwise... (expletive) off!!!!

(Yeah, I know. I'm being harsh, judgemental and critical too. I'll repent for it. I hope you do the same.)

Charity said...

As long as you know you are being just as critical and judgemental. Everyone has a right to his opinion. That is what a forum is all about. It seems like lately we have been putting all things raunchy and tasteless behind the "let's keep it real" mantra. Well, real or not, sometimes it offends some people - especially those Christians who try to follow the Bible when it commands us to "think on those things which are lovely, pure, good, etc."
So, while the pharisees did have their issues, the Lord Jesus did use them as the standard by which we will be judged "except your righteouness EXCEED that of the Pharisees"
I agree with Rodney King and the Bible when it says, "come now, let us reason together..." Can't we all just get along?

Jason said...

Jeff, I think you are seriously misunderstanding my point. Far from legalism, I am speaking of what might cause an unbeliever who might be reading this blog an unnecessary obstacle. In reading it, the unbeliever might really appreciate the angst, emotion, and the fact that Christians have a hard time, too. But the thing they will remember most is that this Christian used bad language.

This is not condescending or judgmental, but simply one Christian brother speaking to another to not unnecessarily cause unbelievers to stumble.

Jason said...

We all would certainly agree that bad language can get you a lot of comments! :) 21 so far.

Son of many preachers said...

It seems to me that the "obstacle" of language choice is only an obstacle for some Christians that don't want to hear certain words.

I just completed a very long trip to southern Africa, and truthfully, the use or non-use of certain words, is the most IRRELEVANT issue of the day, in the bigger picture anyway.

Do you honestly believe God is offended by certain words just because they don't hold to certain puritanical and Victorian airs and mores?

Dear Lord, deliver us from religiosity... meanwhile, people all over the world wait for someone to reach out to them, on their level and love them--right where they are, for who they are, just as they are.

But we have time to debate "sanitizing speech".

Next thing you know, someone will be telling us that Jesus didn't party at a wedding and turn water into wine...

"The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!" Luke 7:34

jason said...

Son of Many Preachers,
I don't think you understand my point. What might not cause an unbeliever to struggle in Africa does in America. This is not religioustiy or legalism, but simply being careful what words we use around people who may be contemplating faith in Christ.

Why unneccesarily put up an obstacle??

Joshua Sager said...

I cuss.

Hell, I am known for it online! Can my "foul" language turn people away from Christ? Sure. Though I don't want it to.

But can the nice, soft, christianise words that Jason chooses to use push people away? Oh yea. They turn me away! If I have to read about another "christian" complaining about about someones language I am going to **********.

See...I can censor myself.

Bitch.

Son of many preachers said...

Jason,

I hear you, but I just can't buy it. You wrote: "Why unneccesarily put up an obstacle?"

No one seems to be stumbling over the "obstacle" but you... Seems like pure projection to me.

If the lost aren't offended, why are you? And why then project your state of being offended onto them?

So who are we kidding here?

It just seems like, more and more, the only people taking offense to everything these days are Christians--who then say they are "protecting those on the brink of salvation."

i.e.--"I'll be offended by certain words or certain laws or certain types of clothes or "insert pet issue of the day" because the lost MIGHT be (or should be) offended by those things."

I am keenly aware of this fact: No one comes to the Father, except He draw them. Further, Jesus is the way, the truth and the light: not "clean, sanitzied, excellent speech" or flowery words, for that matter. Please see the scripture passage below:

1 Corinthians 2:1-5 (King James Version)

1And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

dorsey said...

Jason,

Completely off topic...any chance you're related to Gerald Dollar, missionary to Ukraine?
Just curious.

jeff said...

Jason,

Thanks for not taking my rude comments personally (I was having a bad day...).

I completely understand and agree with your argument. We never want to be a stumbling block...period!

Just remember that the post to which you are referring had nothing to do with profanity. It was a guy sharing his heart.

I guess you're right. If Dorsey had said "bull-hockey" or "crapola" (no real difference in meaning), you would have gotten the point (and this blog wouldn't be so far off the intended path).

Love ya, man! I appreciate your convictions.

(btw- I don't cuss. I've even givenup Christian cussing, so as not to confuse the sinners...)

I've also given up Christian bookstores, Starbucks and gotees (can't stand 'em)

Jason said...

Not related to Gerald Dollar...But sounds like the kind of guy (giving his life for the gospel) that I would like to be related to. I appreciate Jeff and Son's kind words. Now that we are at this stage, I'll admit, occassionally the only appropriate word for a situation is one of those crazy "bad" words. Martin Luther is a prime example of a man using salty language to make a point. And I do agree that we are off topic, after all the blog TRULY is about a brother sharing his heart about his situation at church.

But at the end of the day, I'm glad we all had both conversations. I enjoy fellowship (especially when it is a disagreement that leads to thoughtful evaluation and ultimate maturity for all involved).

dorsey said...

The funny thing is:

This post was a vent of steam, the scream in my soul, tempered by the thing that keeps me together--the love of the family with whom I'm blessed to labor. It was intensely personal. I wrote it for me. I didn't really think it would generate many comments at all.

(shrug, chuckle)

bob said...

I have nothing to say. I just wanted you to have 30 comments on your blog.

Sam said...

Don't I know you from somewhere?

Steve said...

Oh geesh... look at the fun I have been missing. You know I have to chime in too.

So Jason...I think what I am hearing you say is that unbelievers will be offended by the use of "bad" language? That an unbeliever will embrace what was said on Dorsey's post but possibly disregard it because of one word in the entire blog?

You quoted Eph 4:29. What is corrupting talk? You are interpreting it in this instance to be the use of the word BS. I think you would be more valid in saying that Dorsey's diatribe on "hating the church" could be more corrupting or unwholesome to an unbeliever. I would buy that argument more then that some "far from God" person is going to be offended or stumble because a Christian is saying BS.

I have more to add on this subject...but I will leave it for another time.

Jot said...

Wow, Dorse... I love your openness brother! Don't hold back - tell it like it really is! We, as Christians, play the game too much when we really should be more straight-forward in our dialogue. And I can most definitely relate to you and the church filled with good people, but still not on the right road. Why 'churches' build monument to themselves is a mystery to me - period. How they can justify it while people are starving only serves to illustate the evil that drives it forward.
You speak it well, my friend. "God's House" is within each of us - not some structure of wood, glass and brick. And it's not that building that we're to love - it's the lovely people that we find there, and everywhere else! That truly is where the rubber meets the road!
With your blessing, I've linked you from my blog. Thanks for your comments!

Peace, love and typing the truth...

not1jot

"Do not let your deeds belie your words, lest when you speak in church someone may say to himself, 'Why do you not practice what you preach?'"
- St. Jerome

Jot said...

Great goobeldy-goo! I should've read the comments before making one myself! Dorsey, just for the record, I felt the 'venting' of your post when I read it, I found your choice of adjectives to be quite acceptable and appropriate in the context they were offered, and thought your use of the hate/love paradox to be accurately illustrative of the point(s) being made. In short, I was blessed and inspired by those words you were led to type.
To those readers who've been offended, I apologize for not being able to support your position(s). Truth is truth, spin is spin - some will see the difference, others won't. I work in a prison, where all kinds of language is used. I listen to the message being conveyed, because that's why people communicate in the first place. If my brain focused on the grammar, I'd never hear a word. If you're offended, that's OK.

Peace, love and listening...

not1jot

"There are people who, instead of listening to what is being said to them, are already listening to what they are going to say themselves."
- Albert Guinon

Eddie said...

if you were to leave.... would these people still love you? would they still make the time to hang out for you outside of church functions? would they pick up the phone and call you to see how you are doing? or, would they turn their back on you? ostracize you, condemn you? wish you the best of luck but never bother to keep in touch with you?

i would argue that if these people really are your family and love you as much as you say they do, nothing should change just because you stopped going to their church....

i think you need to ask yourself, what's really holding you back? if you really hate your church as much as you say you do, what is it that you're really afraid of? i suppose only you can answer that.

but hey, what do i know...
eddie

jeff said...

Well stated, Eddie.

dorsey said...

Eddie,

That's a fair question. I think Steve answered it when he said "Unless of course the things you love are more powerful then the things you hate. Either way, love and hate are opposite sides of the same coin...passion. Sounds like you have a passion for the place you call "family"."

That was kind of the point of the post. For all the bullsh...no, not going there today. For all the things I absolutely despise about the mindless, selfish, unbiblical way the church is operated (and that's most churches, not just mine), I still love the people more. And that makes it bearable.

Eddie said...

is there any reason why you can't still love the people in your church without having to go to it?

eddie

dorsey said...

I don't have a satisfactory answer, Eddie. I love them, they love me, and I want to be with them. It's just the choice I made.

I don't like to go around saying "God told me..." because it usually turns out to be something I ate. But I have a strong impression in my heart, that, for now, staying and dealing with it is the right thing to do.

eddie said...

interesting. i've heard victims of domestic violence say pretty much the same thing. but in the end, the choice is yours.

good luck to you.
eddie

dorsey said...

Hahaha!

I'm sorry if I left you with the wrong impression. No one has actually thrown a punch (yet). And so far, I've been able to give as good as I get.

Thanks for the cheap shot.

Ron said...

Dorsey,

Read your blog, and I appreciate what you have to say. I may not say it exactly the way you do, but I think that there are many out there who are tired of "going to church." I have started a small dialogue about the issue of the word "pastor on my blog, and I would love for you to visit and share your thoughts. I believe this way, we can begin to radically reveal what God desires - His manifest presence through the saints in the earth.

eddie said...

sorry dorse, i honestly wasn't trying to take a cheap shot at you but i was trying to state a truth as i see it. if you were offended, it was not my intention.

i've got a question for you though, if the "church" is a body of believers in christ, and you hate your church.... aren't you really saying that you hate the people that make up your church? now think about it for just a moment, i'm not trying to be smart or sarcastic here. i'm mearly pointing out that all the things you listed in your original post as things you "hated" about your church exist because the people that make it what it is made it that way and in some cases... want it that way. or, am i totally missing something here?

dorsey said...

I think I have one more comment in me, then I gotta think of another topic.

Eddie, I'm glad you explained your assumption. Now I see where we were disconnected.

Re-read the original post with this thought in mind: I don't hate the body of Christ. I hate the "corporation" that we've set up in order to corral the flock--the real Church.

I hate my church (small "c")--the not-for-profit (yeah, right) corporation.
I love my Church (capital "c")--the congregation of believers, my family.

My church (small "c") is the way it is, not because the people necessarily want it that way. They know what they've been taught. And they've been taught that this is the way we do things, and that it's ok to be comfortable, the status quo is our goal. I don't blame the sheep for being where the shepherd has led them. Leadership (or lack of it) is the culprit. I have said this to the pastor and a few other people. The result was this current situation (And, as if this wasn't messy enough, the pastor is my father-in-law).

I question whether to get into the whole "pastor" discussion all over again. Steve Chastain has done a masterful job with that at StupidChurchPeople.com, and while I don't know Ron's position, he just started a thread at servantsofthekingdom.blogspot.com/.

Anyway Eddie, regarding my staying or leaving, I have a voice among that congregation. If I split, so do my questions, my challenges to the status quo, my contributions to the ministry. Not that the church can't survive without me, but I still have a purpose there. The enemy's trick is to tempt me to believe that I can find a place where they think and do exactly the way I think they should. I'm not that stupid.

Charity said...

Dorsey,
I agree with you about the trick of the ememy to deceive you into thinking that you can find a place where people will do and think exactly the way you think they should.
I am in the same boat and I am praying for you. What I hear in your post is not so much loathing for your church but your heart crying out for a change for yourself.
I know about that because I am going through the same thing. Usuually when we come to level of frustration, we need to seek the face of the Lord more fervently to receive more of Him. In His presence if fullness of joy. The Lord promises to fill the voids and needs we have. It's not the fault of the church because it will never, ever be perfect, right or even sometimes even tolerable!
The problem is us!

Bob said...

I think you should stop cussin', put your opinions aside and submit to the authority of the pastor...

Ron said...

Dorsey,

I am hoping that my most recent post may help explain my position. I feel you, brother. God does set us with other members of the body of Christ, right where it pleases Him, not us. I respect very much the fact that you have chosen not to run from your assignment. I am looking forward to more discussion on the state of the church in 2005.

scriblegurl said...

Hi! We got this new pastor dude, n my dad got pissed of because he was reading a book about the bible instead of reading the bible. I totally agree with my dad. You can rarely find a church that just reads the bible. Most of them have to read books on the bible. I don't get why you would read a book about the bible when u could just read the bible. Anyways, I don't think we'll be going back to our church.

Pauly said...

As far as the cursing, well, all I can say is ...Damn...

I have yet to find an unbeliever that was offended if I said damn, or bullshit, or any other word you can think of. What??? comeon....you WERE thinking those other words... you know them...you've used them...
The only "obstacle" seems to be in the way of other Christians. We speak Christianese to non-Christians until their eyes glaze over. Hell, they have no idea what we're trying to say. Fo shizzle, we shadizzle be talkin chineezle.
You think Jesus was intimidated by "bad" words? The only accounts of him getting ticked off was at the religious community. I hardly think the crowds he hung out with thought about not using language that might offend anyone. Get a few glasses of wine in them, and who knows where the conversation went?
Just my thoughts. We need to be focused on other things.
As far as the church situation, I was in the same place 14 years ago. We left... and the old lady that prayed for me all the time? (I had one too). Well, she was just another one that would go down a different aisle at the grocery store when she saw us coming, along with the Sunday school teacher, the youth leader, most of the men's group, and the other elders and board members I served with. Our names were even mentioned from the pulpit as someone they were not to associate with. 9 years in that church's leadership, and we got the "left foot of fellowship" because the pastor's wife had an affair. With about 6 or 7 men in the church. And I brought it up.
All I can say is, life goes on, God is faithful, and HE restores. My church family now? A rag-tag group of dysfunctional misfits who love me, pray for me when I need it, hear my heart's confession, and help bring restoration when I am in sin... We're not perfect, but I'm not going anywhere now.

BHGA said...

WOW!!! This reminded me of conversations held in my house when I was a young lass trying to understand why my mother and all eight of us kids had to go to catholic church, but my Dad didnt....he cussed like a sailor, never went to church, said he understood the bible but couldnt understand why the priest didnt (LOL!!!) and was saved two years before he died. I loved my DAD. As you fellowship on this blog, may the holy spirit dwell in your hearts as you find peace and comfort. God searches the heart of man.

Blessings,
Donna

Anonymous said...

Love and hate - a common pairing, but as John Claypool once said, "Hatred is not the opposite of love, apathy is the opposite of love." - or something like that. All you guys care a lot.