Head First: A Double-Edged Sword

Wednesday, June 14, 2006

A Double-Edged Sword

I'm crazy busy this week, and will post about our Sunday outing (no pun intended). But this has been gnawing at me.

How do you condemn self-righteousness without becoming self-righteous in the process?

41 comments:

Kitty Cheng said...

Hey Dorsey, I think it's not our job to condemn other's self-righteousness. Our job is to be aware of God's Grace and pray that we don't become self-righteous ourselves.

Zeke said...

Dude, pretty much the only people Jesus condemned were the self-righteous. The legalistic. Those who heaped burdens on other people that God never intended them to carry.

I hear what you're saying that you run the danger of being self-righteous in your condemnation of self-righteousness. I think a "there but for the grace of God go I" attitude is called for even while you're telling it like it T-I-Z. Jesus went easy on sinners and hard on the "righteous;" if we emulate his behavior we'll do the same.

Jim Jordan said...

Hi Dorsey
Good question - sounds like you had quite an experience. Self-righteousness is prideful. Righteousness through Christ is a righteousness that is united with Him, a loving kind of righteousness (not boasting, all about caring). As Zeke says, telling it like it is only I would add without anger.

Jesus went hard on the self-righteous who were using His name to justify their hypocrisy and cruelty. Church leaders who fall into the radical right (Rev. Phelps) or radical left (PCUSA) category would be excoriated by Christ.
Therefore, condemning the gays in Jesus' name is far worse than the gay pride movement. While gay pride leads the soul into darkness, pridefully judging them leads the gays further away, and fuels a narcissistic Christianity, leading Christians into darkness also. No wonder Jesus rebuked the church so forcefully.
Eagerly awaiting your report. God bless.

dorsey said...

I didn't mean to give the impression that my question referred to gay issues or my experience at PhillyPride. Sorry for not being clear.

I'm just thinking about all the people (including myself) who rightly ascribe sanctimonious intent to the words and actions of other people (especially the religious). In so doing, we run the risk of becoming priggish, ourselves. It's a variation of ex-smoker's syndrome, a bit of a trap that can be avoided with a fair degree of self-awareness.

Jim, I don't think anger is wrong. Jesus sure sounded pissed when He called the pharisees a generation of vipers, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't thinking happy thoughts when He started swinging that whip.

BruceD said...

Maybe it's not about self-righteousness at all, but about something much deeper. Maybe it's about freedom vs. slavery. We're all slaves to ourselves to some degree, and maybe it's about becoming free from self... and helping others find increasing degrees of freedom. It's not about who's right and who's wrong, but about coming to terms with ourselves and understanding what motivates us.

Jim Jordan said...

Hi Dorsey
I wasn't so clear myself, I guess. Anger at those who misrepresent Christ to others is justified, as Jesus showed us. Anger at others for sinning is 1) prideful and 2) hypocritical. I'm not saying we shouldn't accuse unrighteousness ("Innocence accuses an unrighteous world" - Boenhoffer) but we shouldn't nurture anger for our own sake.

You make a good point regarding self-awareness. Christ enhances our self-awareness, at least He's enhanced mine.
In His service.

jeff said...

How do you condemn self-righteousness without becoming self-righteous in the process?
To me this happens when we embrace the righteousness God gave us. He says that we are the righteousness of God in Him. We don't earn it or deserve it. It's our position in Him, and it's based solely on Him.

When we truly view ourselves in this manner, I think our views towards others will take care of themselves.

Mrs Zeke said...

How about this carry a mirror, whenever you are about to say or do anything that may be self rightous look in the mirror first and ask yourself "is this about me or about God"

no point in telling a fib you already know the answer :)

ok its simplified but it might work

Your loved

Zeke said...

Wouldn't work for me. I'd pop the mirror out and just think, "Damn, what a sexy bastard..."

jill said...

Welcome back Dorsey.
Yeah, don't think condemning helps much. Know Jesus was hard on the Pharisees, but he was without sin. I ask myself how would someone who doesn't know Jesus interpret my judging a self-righteous person when we both are professing to be Christians? Probably think we were both judgemental and be turned off.

Kc said...

I think there is only one way I can condemn self-righteousness without becoming self-righteous and that is to condemn it in my self. ;-)

jeff said...

well said, kc

Jim Jordan said...

good Word, kc
That is the starting point and plumb line.

Steve said...

Wasn't this a similar issue discussed on Jeff's blog about how we shouldn't be critical of people anymore... because being critical isn't somehow creative or whatever.... that it is only tearing down other people for the sake of tearing it down....

Anyway, I'd love to reference that but all the history or demerging is seemingly gone forever..... but I digress...

I think KC has the point where I come from.... I am extremely aware of my nature for ego-centeredness, for people-pleasing and self-serving righteousness. It has been ingrained in me for years - that's how I recognize it so easily in others.

I typically don't have a problem pointing out the self-righteousness of others, especially the religious leaders, pastors and church people - because I am (was) part of that sub-culture. If you take it too seriously when you are being criticized, can't look in the mirror and check your motives.... then in my opinion you might be guilty of that self-righteous thing.

KnowNoTone said...

Hey,

Ryan Setliff ROCKS. Good to see you here dude. You know me from our former days on PB. I'm the "guy down south" that you may come and visit!

Ryan S. said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
KnowNoTone said...

Dude,

You've "outed me". Now I'll have to stop using the occassional "f" word when I get fiesty.

Do ya still love and respect me?

Sable Chicken said...

Self-serving righteousness!? Dorsey...You gave a $tarbucks to the sacred cow, and now it looks like you got it thrown back in your face. Are you really questioning your own motives!? I read the whole G-bomb post and how you are getting disrespected. I read the comment that got deleted. It was warring words and I think you were wise to delete it (although I would have loved to have read your response)
Who is making up all the rules now days!? The homosexuals are? and we had all better listen up and behave them. Why are they going to tell Christians now what is sin and what is not. Give me a brake. (and the worst is Trolling?) I have been walking on egg shells for so long it hurts? No one is aloud to ask what the hell is going on. How are we to come to an understanding? We can't because the new rules are being made up as we go along and any Christian that doesn't just throw out their Bible is now a hatemonger. We should just follow Oparh's lead and join in with the "Pride-fest"! Now that is love. No one can really understand what is going on and it would be un-PC to try and understand it, just love and don't judge. And what about the spouse that has invested in a marriage 15+ years..."well they are cool with that"...so we all should be too.
What in the world did God give us brains for!? If we are to let other people tell us how to think. It's sin! Is it a sin that is greater than any other sin...maybe not. But just like any other sin there is a fall out of consequences. People are hurting and we are not even aloud to try and understand...just join in the party and have fun. I'm sorry but it is so end times and our biggest sin is not being loving enough!? On top of that the constant disrespecting of our God!!!!

eddie{F} said...

SableChicken

You are just a “chicken” for not addressing me in my space, and come here to “vent” in a round about way about my post, instead of talking to me directly, or to stick to what Dorsey has done out of the conviction of his heart.

So, let me help you out;
I don’t care what you or your Bible has to say about homosexuality either way. What you consider SIN is totally immaterial to me. I don’t live up to your Bible or it’s “values” - understood?

Why are they going to tell Christians now what is sin and what is not.
We DON’T care. Live by your standards – just don’t peddle Jesus to us as being kind if you do that, and don’t shove your standards of SIN down the throats of those who aren’t Christians.

Give me a brake.
Which brand to you prefer – NAPA or ACDelco?

We can't because the new rules are being made up as we go along and any Christian that doesn't just throw out their Bible is now a hatemonger.
Didn’t Dorsey’ card apologize for the “hate” that Christians showed to homosexual people? Maybe you should take a trip to the closest mirror.

No one can really understand what is going on and it would be un-PC to try and understand it, just love and don't judge.
Why do you have such an overbearing desire to JUDGE? That says so much about YOU!

And what about the spouse that has invested in a marriage 15+ years..."well they are cool with that"...so we all should be too.
Why don’t you get off your fucking high moral rocker and ask HER directly how SHE feels about her investment? I bet you JUST might get the surprise of your life, and it I have NO doubt that it will challenge what you believed about LOVE. If you want her number, just ask. You have no idea who this woman is, and I will not allow you to disrespect her love. That will send me over the edge – just so you know.

But just like any other sin there is a fall out of consequences.
And dear Chicken – just what the hell is the consequence of the “sin” of homosexuality?

People are hurting and we are not even aloud to try and understand...just join in the party and have fun.
And it’s clear that you are only TALKING about love, and have no understanding what it is like to be in the shoes of either party. Your love stinks lady!

I'm sorry but it is so end times and our biggest sin is not being loving enough!?
Please do me a favor and put a bullet in your head – that way you miss the “end times” and save me your self-righteous religious bullshit.

eddie{F} said...

Dorsey

I respect what you have done, even if I disagree with the premise. My sense is that this has taught you more about yourself and what you believe than what it actually meant to those who received your cards. And I am always jazzed when people “grow” – regardless of how that comes about and the circumstances surrounding it.
Congratulations!

dorsey said...

eddie(F),

I'm really grateful to hear you say that. It often seems that most of my "growing" involves slipping farther away from some of the things of which I was once so certain.

I didn't expect to make everyone happy, and I'm sure I didn't. But I hope we did make someone feel encouraged, and that's something.

Thanks. I mean it.

dorsey@dorseymarshall.com

brad said...

Generally, I will approach it in a spirit of humbleness and acknowledge that I fall short a lot, but I don't want the issue to destroy the other person.

Sable Chicken said...

Eddie(f)
You scare the day lights out of me! That's why I'm not on your blog. I have been wrestling with atheists, I know just how it works. You don't want me to talk to you on your blog. And it has nothing to do with your sexuality. You have talked yourself out of being a Christian and you want to talk others out of it too. That's my biggest beef with you.

I am really glad that everyone around you is happy for you and your wife loves you. Really I am. I can't seem to even begin to understand and I am trying, but there really seems to be little I can do to come to an understanding of what in the world is going on now. You are most likely going through so much and trying to understand yourself, where your place is. I don't know, but if I was going to guess I would think that you feel that right now your back is against a wall and you are lashing out at others because you are fighting mad and hurting. Maybe I can relate to you on that part.

"... to stick to what Dorsey has done out of the conviction of his heart." Ok I think that he did what God was pulling on his heart to do. It's not what I would do but I support his effort. I thought that he was handing out cards that just said this was a gift from Jesus. I just realized that it was a whole apology about what Christians have done. I'm not your average stupid church person. If I was not a chicken I would be standing next to Repent American and risking going to jail rather than passing out $tarbucks. I feel the internal push every day to do something more than just shutting up as a form of love that the world wants to recieve from Christians.

So when you talk about judgeing you make it sound like it is always a bad thing to do. We should judge every thing we do. Is it right?... or is it wrong? So of corse I fall short and I sin. Now I don't have the right to say anything about anything? Christians are only aloud to speak up if it's fitting into your brand of love?

So, let me help you out;
I understand that you don’t care what the Bible has to say. We are talking on a Christian blog, and as long as Dorsey doesn''t mind I will talk about values that are in material to the Bible. And in that case there are very clear consequences to sin...understood!?

"...that way you miss the “end times” and save me your self-righteous religious bullshit." By the way It not religious BS to me.
Why are you holding back, tell me what you really think, don't for get to remind me that you are very sensitive right now so I need to watch my P's and Q's but you don't have to.

eddie{F} said...

You scare the day lights out of me! That's why I'm not on your blog. I have been wrestling with atheists, I know just how it works.
I scare you – oh how funny! In any event, your first problem is all your preconceived ideas, and if calling you on them scares you, then I understand. I say that, because contrary to your presumptions - I am NOT an atheist.

You don't want me to talk to you on your blog. And it has nothing to do with your sexuality.
Funny how there are other people that like to talk to me. Christians mind you, for whom I have the utmost of respect. You are just a CHICKEN shit – that’s all.

You have talked yourself out of being a Christian and you want to talk others out of it too. That's my biggest beef with you.
More like have researched myself out of Christianity, and I can really care a flying thimble whether other people see it my way. I just challenge the boilerplate Christian answers that people like you toss around. That’s all, and if that’s scary for you, then we need to find you a security blankie.

I can't seem to even begin to understand and I am trying, but there really seems to be little I can do to come to an understanding of what in the world is going on now.
Listen, the sky isn’t falling, and if your Christian sky is, then you live in a really sad world.

You are most likely going through so much and trying to understand yourself, where your place is.
I think I have that pretty much covered.

I don't know, but if I was going to guess I would think that you feel that right now your back is against a wall and you are lashing out at others because you are fighting mad and hurting.
Just saying that makes me realize how clueless you are about my journey and what I have lived through. Am I totally pissed off at Christianiy for stealing so much from our lives – you bet – and I’ll “lash” out until I feel better. If you cannot handle raw honesty, then I understand that my blog will be intimidating to you.

Maybe I can relate to you on that part.
How?

I feel the internal push every day to do something more than just shutting up as a form of love that the world wants to recieve from Christians.
Then why don’t you? What is stopping you and why are you “shutting up” if you have such strong convictions? Or are you just a chicken for the persecution that will come your way?

Christians are only aloud to speak up if it's fitting into your brand of love?
Listen, you can condemn and judge my “lifestyle” any day of the week. I don’t care, it makes no difference to me if you accept or reject me. You can flaunt your Christian “values” all day long, but when it encroaches on my world, my values and my morals, then you bet we are going to have a “fight.” Point being – I am NOT a Christian, and all the boilerplate arguments about homosexuality falls flat when dissected, and they are merely the pet verses that fundamentalist lik you love to pull out to make the world fit your religious convictions. I DO know the Bible too you know!

I understand that you don’t care what the Bible has to say. We are talking on a Christian blog, and as long as Dorsey doesn''t mind I will talk about values that are in material to the Bible. And in that case there are very clear consequences to sin...understood!?
Yes, don’t care, and yes, this is Dorsey’s blog where he can decide what to allow or not. And yes, you can peddle your Christian values all day long on his blog, but when you start to talk ABOUT me or my wife, instead of having the spine to do it in my face, then I will take you on. Understood?
Oh, and the “consequences” – I fully accept them. I would much rather spent an eternity in “hell” than one day in the presence of the repugnant monster that is written about in your Bible.

Why are you holding back, tell me what you really think, don't for get to remind me that you are very sensitive right now so I need to watch my P's and Q's but you don't have to.
I think you are full of crap, a chicken shit, clueless about love and that you probably cannot even spell the word homosexual – hence why you might prefer a short word, such as FAG?

I guess I am telling you, please have you worldview, but just keep me out of your conversations. Understood?

Sable Chicken said...

eddie(F)
"I would much rather spent an eternity in “hell” than one day in the presence of the repugnant monster that is written about in your Bible."
You don't even know what you are saying! ;( Becareful, God will give you what you want, no one will be drug kicking and screaming into Heaven.

"My" problem is all my preconceived ideas? You called yourself an agnostic. It seems to me that you are NOT open to God. You have done the research and now you decided He is not there....Hmmm can you see how I came to the conclusion you are an atheist? Why are you trying to decieve me? I have done the research also and the more I do the more the Bible makes sence to me when it didn't before.

Are you still leaving room for God in your life?

You think you have such a great idea who I am and what my life is about, and you tell me to put a bullet in my head? I am not your Christianity that has taken so much of your life. How much of your time was really consumned by me? I spent over two hours trying to carefully pick and choose my words to you and you mock me for being dyslexic.

Enjoy your homosexual life, I'm sorry that I can't be as happy for you as your other Christian friends. I think your wife is a wonderful person to have so much love for you that she can put her hurt aside. It is so nice for you that more people have come to your side to congratulate you on being gay then I had congratulate me for proclaiming I wanted to be baptized.

eddie{F} said...

You don't even know what you are saying!
I absolutely DO – I assure you.

Becareful, God will give you what you want, no one will be drug kicking and screaming into Heaven.
You didn’t hear – I don’t want to go there, especially not when there are people in that place like you. And I voluntarily give up my ticket for someone else.

You called yourself an agnostic. It seems to me that you are NOT open to God. You have done the research and now you decided He is not there
I am not “open” to your BibleGod any more than you are open to Allah as god. But I am open to the Creator – I just figure it doesn’t reveal itself in the back alley’s of some Jewish hamlet.

Hmmm can you see how I came to the conclusion you are an atheist?
No, I don’t – unless you needed to fit me into your Christian box of what is an atheist and what is not. Even you are an atheist to the many other “gods” out there. You have no idea that your god is any more true than the myriad to pick from.

Why are you trying to decieve me?
Sweetie – you are DECEIVNG yourself!

I have done the research also and the more I do the more the Bible makes sence to me when it didn't before.
Except you are too CHICKEN to enter into a real debate about your so-called research.

Are you still leaving room for God in your life?
Define GOD?

I am not your Christianity that has taken so much of your life.
Well, the stuff coming out of your mouth certainly reminds me of that. So forgive me if I confuse you for it – cuz you certainly look like the poster of it.

How much of your time was really consumned by me?
Too much already.

I spent over two hours trying to carefully pick and choose my words to you and you mock me for being dyslexic.
Oh how friggen funny! Ever heard of a grammar and spell checker?

Enjoy your homosexual life, I'm sorry that I can't be as happy for you as your other Christian friends.
Thanks for the support – I plan to DO exactly that!

I think your wife is a wonderful person to have so much love for you that she can put her hurt aside.
No, she is not putting it aside in true Christian fashion – she is actually dealing with it – without the aid of your god. Now if you want to call someone out on being an atheist – then she is your girl. But she has more love than I have witnessed from most Christians. You can learn from her!

It is so nice for you that more people have come to your side to congratulate you on being gay then I had congratulate me for proclaiming I wanted to be baptized.
Seriously – cry yourself a river, build a bridge and get over it!

JimmyBob said...

Sable Chicken, you're not alone. I want to just encourage you to keep reading the Scriptures and gain wisdom from them.

Sable Chicken said...

Thanks Jimmybob

Sable Chicken said...

"No, I don’t – unless you needed to fit me into your Christian box of what is an atheist and what is not. Even you are an atheist to the many other “gods” out there. You have no idea that your god is any more true than the myriad to pick from."

This is just what I was saying before...OK..You are the sacred cow and you will define the meaning of the word atheist, God, love, hate, marriage...or whatever. How do I pick the God of the Bible out from all the other so called gods. God has revealed himself through Jesus...so we don't have to keep guessing. We know were we came from and where we are going. There is historical proof. But you put on blinders to filter all that out and pick a feel good god that is of your own making. You don't see it because you what God to conform to you and He is not doing it...He has disappointed you. It's just the oppossite we have disappointed Him, but he loves us anyway.
You put me into your homosexual box of who Christians are just because you what to do what ever you what to do. When I was talking about the consequences of sin...lets just step back and for get about Hell for a minute and talk about the here and now.

If I was walking down the street and I say some one take a bat to someone elses car for no more reason than just "I always felt the need to do this". And the owner of the car, said "Hey, it's ok. It's just a car, I will not allow myself to get all bent out of shape over this." Yet me as that viewer of this is upset. I do have a right to understand what in the world just happened. The person that did this walks away saying, "Now that's true love there, all you Christians learn from this, and by the way your God is a monster."

We are not talking about a car here.

Let me put it this way
http://www.ezprezzo.com/animations/bubblegirl.html

eddie{F} said...

This is just what I was saying before...OK..You are the sacred cow and you will define the meaning of the word atheist, God, love, hate, marriage...or whatever.
You are not serious, are you? I don’t define the words, but you seem hell bent on twisting them to MAKE it fit the context that computes in your little saved Christian brain.

God has revealed himself through Jesus...so we don't have to keep guessing.
No, that’s exactly why we keep guessing, because there is not a lick evidence that he existed, other than what is written about him in your bible, and even then the story doesn’t add up. You may believe that, but I am not a sucker for your mythology.

We know were we came from and where we are going.
Yeah, your bible has that right – dust to dust.

There is historical proof.
Such as? Oh, this can be fun. Do you seriously want to debate historical “evidence” – I am all game. I’ll start a new post for you on my blog, but just don’t run away like JimmyBob.

But you put on blinders to filter all that out and pick a feel good god that is of your own making.
Oh, then you admit that your god isn’t into making people feel good right? No kidding! And I don’t have to create a god for myself, because I don’t need one to hold my hands. I am simply evaluating your god based on the facts. The Creator knows my address … and it’s name is not BibleGod

You don't see it because you what God to conform to you and He is not doing it...He has disappointed you.
No, your god hasn’t disappointed me, because he doesn’t exist. He is pure fiction. I disappointed myself for believing the lies ABOUT your god – big difference.

It's just the oppossite we have disappointed Him, but he loves us anyway.
Yeah well, I don’t care for the umpteenth time.

You put me into your homosexual box of who Christians are just because you what to do what ever you what to do.
And what is it that I WANT to do? Lady, you don’t know me or my life or my morals, so quit while you are ahead. And if you would have stuck around a little longer then you may realize that I have plenty of Christian friends.

When I was talking about the consequences of sin...lets just step back and for get about Hell for a minute and talk about the here and now.
What is the consequence of the “sin” of homosexuality? How does it affect YOU what two consenting adults do in their bedroom? And just why the hell are you so eager to judge others? Why is my “sin” such a sore point for you? Is your life really that uninteresting that you need to be obsessed with my “sin?”

If I was walking down the street and I say some one take a bat to someone elses car for no more reason than just "I always felt the need to do this". And the owner of the car, said "Hey, it's ok. It's just a car, I will not allow myself to get all bent out of shape over this."
Anyone in their right mind would be upset, and I restrain myself from slapping idiots like you – because it would be an immoral and unkind thing to do. You FALSESLY assume that I want to do what I want to do when I want to do it. It’s a strawman that you created for yourself.

Yet me as that viewer of this is upset. I do have a right to understand what in the world just happened. The person that did this walks away saying, "Now that's true love there, all you Christians learn from this, and by the way your God is a monster."
Again, WHY would you NEED or WANT to be upset about what I do with my LIFE? Why? If I did something that harmed you, then I might have grasped your depression about the “state” of the world, but I don’t. What I do doesn’t affect you in any way. And YES, it’s true love, because I have actually experienced it (didn’t need to conjure it up in my mind), and yes, read the Old Testament cover to cover and then tell me how your god is not a monster.

And yes, cute pic of you flopping all over the place with your deep "theological" insight into my world. At least you are being honest – ha!

JimmyBob said...

but just don’t run away like JimmyBob.
Eddie(f), I didn't run away. Quit lying!

Sable Chicken said...

"And yes, cute pic of you flopping all over the place with your deep "theological" insight into my world. At least you are being honest – ha! " You are so clueless! That is how any woman would feel after her husband says...I love you so much but I want to have sex with someone else.

Eddie(f) you say "....there is not a lick evidence that he existed, other than what is written about him in your bible, and even then the story doesn’t add up."

It just doesn't add up for you because you are more interested in trying to NOT understand it then you are trying to understand it.
No matter who you might think Jesus Christ is or was, is one thing, but to rewrite history to say that he did not even exist makes you sound clueless.

Church discovered near Armegeddon
Oct. 2005

"Israeli archaeologists on Saturday said they have discovered what may be the oldest Christian church in the Holy Land on the grounds of a prison near the biblical site of Armageddon.

The Israeli Antiquities Authority said the ruins are believed to date back to the third or fourth centuries, and include references to Jesus and images of fish, an ancient Christian symbol."
http://www.happynews.com/news/1152005/archaeologists-discover-ancient-church.htm

Hmmmm...over and over people are willing to die for what they believed about Jesus. What kind of proof did they have...strong proof. Really Eddie, if there was a way to distroy every Bible in the world, and than push Christianity underground. There would still be new Christians popping up out of no where without good explanation. Because that is the way the Holy Spirit works. Unless it has happened to you...it is hard to understand.

The OT...the story of creation and the history of Gods chosen people. It is prophetic of the Messiah to come. Jesus did not just stumble out from the desert and no one knows where he has come from.
Hey the Bible is hard and it's teaching is hard too. There is a reason for that. If God made it so easy for everyone to understand , than He would be jamming down your throat and there is no "free will" in that. If the Bible was a story from man it would be differant. It would be a total feel good thing for everyone to read. But instead the Bible constantly convicts the conscience. There is only blame to laid on our heads not Gods.

So if you want to play "I have more proof than you games" and I call it games because you don't want to have eyes to see or ears to hear...then do it here, so Jimmy Bob and who every else has the nuts to join in on the side of Truth. I'm not coming to your "bedroom blog" and then here you whine about how I'm trolling you. You have got to make an effort. If you have real questions and need straight answers....stand on the shoulders of giants. http://www.oneplace.com/Ministries/bible_answer_man/Archives.asp

eddie{F} said...

You are so clueless! That is how any woman would feel after her husband says...I love you so much but I want to have sex with someone else.
In this case it would be you who are clueless, because a) she is not the spineless “any woman” you run into at your bible studies – you will never measure up to her greatness b) We are not getting divorced because I wanted to have sex with anyone else c) Stop trying to fit her into your narrow-minded little Christian box – you will never figure it out because it requires brains.

It just doesn't add up for you because you are more interested in trying to NOT understand it then you are trying to understand it.
If I didn’t want to understand, then it is an awful waste of trying research. But what you are actually saying is that if I don’t understand it in the way that you have glued all the pieces together then I don’t want to? Talk about being clueless.

No matter who you might think Jesus Christ is or was, is one thing, but to rewrite history to say that he did not even exist makes you sound clueless.
Then please point out to me what history I have rewritten, and while you are at it, you still have not given me any “evidence” other than your beliefs.

"Israeli archaeologists on Saturday said they have discovered what may be the oldest Christian church in the Holy Land on the grounds of a prison near the biblical site of Armageddon.
Ok, follow your delusion: If you make that argument, then you are saying that Osiris-Dionysus was just as real as Jesus, because we have a amulet of him dying on a cross for his followers. But you see, you are just being an atheist about the fact that he did what your savior did 2300 before him. All this article points out is the fact that there were Christians, not a Jesus. Or are you saying that the followers of Mythra worshipped a real being because there are historical evidence for their temples? I just love it when people like you talk yourself into a box.

Hmmmm...over and over people are willing to die for what they believed about Jesus.
And so did the followers of many other “false” gods in your opinion. Martyrdom is not unique to Christianity. So, you are saying that what they believed is just as “true” as Jesus because they gave their lives for it? Then you are saying that Allah is real because sixteen guys flew a jet into a building for their God? They TOO were willing to die for their beliefs – are their god then just as real as yours?

What kind of proof did they have...strong proof.
Such as? Still waiting ….

Really Eddie, if there was a way to distroy every Bible in the world, and than push Christianity underground. There would still be new Christians popping up out of no where without good explanation.
Same way like Muslims pop up no matter how much Christians evangelize them. Same way that Zoroastrians are still around? That’s your “proof” – gimme me a break lady!

Because that is the way the Holy Spirit works. Unless it has happened to you...it is hard to understand.
And yes, it did happen to me, I made it all up in my mind the same way you are doing right now.

The OT...the story of creation and the history of Gods chosen people. It is prophetic of the Messiah to come. Jesus did not just stumble out from the desert and no one knows where he has come from.
Huh? A minute ago you had “evidence” that he came into the earth, now no-one knows? You have that right! And you kindly “rewrite” the synopis to exclude how your god instructs his “chosen” people to kill, steal, rape, murder (even children). Help yourself man!

Hey the Bible is hard and it's teaching is hard too.
Hard to imagine how you can buy it yes!

If God made it so easy for everyone to understand , than He would be jamming down your throat and there is no "free will" in that.
“Free will” is an oxymoron in the Christian context, but let’s not flip your mind out with that yet.

If the Bible was a story from man it would be differant.
No, it would read exactly like it is written.

It would be a total feel good thing for everyone to read.
Another strawman – non theists understands the polarity of life far better then Christians. They don’t expect a “feel good” world, because we understand why polarity is necessary.

But instead the Bible constantly convicts the conscience. There is only blame to laid on our heads not Gods.
I’d be more convicted following Hercules than Biblegod. At least he wasn’t as cruel for killing a man picking up sticks on the Sabbath – ugh!

So if you want to play "I have more proof than you games" and I call it games because you don't want to have eyes to see or ears to hear...then do it here,
Maybe you don’t have eyes and ears to examine the evidence.

so Jimmy Bob and who every else has the nuts to join in on the side of Truth.
Like I said, have your “truth” – just keep me out of it.

I'm not coming to your "bedroom blog" and then here you whine about how I'm trolling you.
Because you are too chicken shit and spineless to talk to me in my face.

You have got to make an effort. If you have real questions and need straight answers....stand on the shoulders of giants.
I have to breath lady – that’s it!

http://www.oneplace.com/Ministries/bible_ answer_man/Archives.asp
Oh that is pure Christian propaganda – no answers there!

JimmyBob said...

Eddie(f), what's the deal? Are you still honestly searching for truth or just harrassing Christians and bashing their God because you feel cheated?

There really isn't anything new in your comments. In fact, for someone who calls themself an agnostic you line up closer with the noted atheistic philosopher Bertrand Russell who was once asked, "If you meet God after you die, what will you say to Him to justify your unbelief?" His reply was, "I will tell Him that He did not give me enough evidence."

I'll give you this, you make me study harder and dig deeper. Because of you, I have also realized that I need to pray more and seek His Spirit to move in powerful demonstrations. Christians in America have grown cold and I am one of them. This was predicted.

Maybe you like to mess with Christians because you're hanging on and hoping that someone will someday make sense to you? Well, if you've already decided the God of the Bible is evil, your way of thinking is your stumbling block, not the lack of evidence.

eddie{F} said...

Eddie(f), what's the deal? Are you still honestly searching for truth or just harrassing Christians and bashing their God because you feel cheated?
The BIG DEAL JimmyBob is that your religion is not a big deal to me. I stayed out of this (out of respect for what happened between me and Dorsey), but when ole chicken dragged me into it, what my wife is supposed to feel, how she must apparently react so that it can make sense to a chicken, and or what is going on in her psyche – then you bet I will not keep quiet.
And aren’t we all searching for the truth? Why are you so offended when someone doesn't find your truth as enamoring as you?
If you consider questioning your religion “harassment” then I plead guilty. I just will not pretend around Christians who doesn’t respect me for not believing what they do. And I have a couple of Christian friends whom I never have these kinds of asinine conversations with.

In fact, for someone who calls themself an agnostic you line up closer with the noted atheistic philosopher Bertrand Russell who was once asked, "If you meet God after you die, what will you say to Him to justify your unbelief?" His reply was, "I will tell Him that He did not give me enough evidence."
Cast my any way you must, I know what I am, and I am agnostic, but I am very sure that the Christian story is just as much mythology as the Pagan gods. For one, becaus none of you have refuted the arguments - you keep on appealing to "faith" as a means to reason away the questions.
But that doesn’t mean I am not searching for the Creator.

I'll give you this, you make me study harder and dig deeper. Because of you, I have also realized that I need to pray more and seek His Spirit to move in powerful demonstrations.
Well, then mission accomplished. Thanks your god that I am evoking that response in you.

Christians in America have grown cold and I am one of them. This was predicted.
Oh, don’t get me started with Christians IN AMERICA.

Maybe you like to mess with Christians because you're hanging on and hoping that someone will someday make sense to you?
No, I have no illusion that it will never make sense, and that the story is fabricated and that it cannot ADD up, no matter how much you twist the Holy Babble.

Well, if you've already decided the God of the Bible is evil, your way of thinking is your stumbling block, not the lack of evidence.
I didn’t DECIDE that, it became aparent to me when I stepped back long enough to see his actions for what it is. If you cannot call his evil, well evil, then I seriously question your morality for bending the story until he “looks” good and holy to you. Maybe your stumbling block is the fact that you cannot be intellectually honest about calling evil what it is. I would love to see you justify the evil he instructed his “chosen” people to commit.

JimmyBob said...

Oh, Eddie(f). Ughhh!

Why are you so offended when someone doesn't find your truth as enamoring as you?
If you consider questioning your religion “harassment” then I plead guilty. I just will not pretend around Christians who doesn’t respect me for not believing what they do. And I have a couple of Christian friends whom I never have these kinds of asinine conversations with.

I don't get offended because you don't share my beliefs. I get offended when you bash my beliefs and curse and make fun of my God to my face.

What evidence have you found in your quest for the Creator?

Steve said...

I do have to chime in here... just a bit...

Sable, if you recall, you and I went a couple of rounds back in October of last year about my separation from my wife (and impending divorce) where you presumed to understand the situation... and you made these statements....

I don't know your situation with your wife, but if your really want her back, become a changed man. It is worth it to make it work with her than to think that you will find a better woman to love your children with you. I will be praying for you with this, because I no that this will not be easy for you to do.

Now I do know this is drudging up the past a bit, but I think this goes to a predisposition you have to presume you can and are able to get into other people's feelings... I don't think you have changed that much (based on the evidence of these recent comments). You have a history of this...

So let me share with you now what I shared with you then.. I think it is still applicable.

So, you are right Sable when you say that you do not know my situation... you are supposing and assuming things that you know NOTHING about....

I hope you will rethink the way it sounds when you say things like that to people in my current circumstance. I hope that you will not make assumptions about people and their life and will give them your genuine care and concern... not your solutions or "godly" advice. It's OK to be a "stupid church person", because we all are. And all of us need to recognize it in our lives, learn how we can become more honest with ourselves and others, and reflect genuine love and concern for others.


You can read my full comment here. Also, for anyone interested you can read what my future former wife wrote immediately below it.

We are talking about two different situations (homosexuality and divorce) but what I am seeing is the same attitude from you.

eddie{F} said...

Yikes Steve

Thanks for pointing that out, and now everything makes sense. I was a little perplexed why anyone would have a need to analyze what my wife must feel, but I see there is a history there. Maybe her world is really sad and empty, and why she get her kicks out of analyzing other people’s marriage and sexuality. I am done with her, it’s just not worth the time …

Sable Chicken said...

Steve we happen to be now talking about if Jesus even existed. I am not trying to save anyones marriage here. What are you trying to do? We also "finished" talking about this on my blog as well and I listened. Why don't you pull up the link on that one too. Let's play fair please. Are you even useing the Bible at all in your belief system? Can you stand up for God or only yourself?

"Ho Ho Sir Surgeon, you are too delicate to tell the man that he is ill. You hope to heal the sick without their knowing it. You therefore flatter them. And what happenes? They laugh at you. They dance upon their own graves and at last they die. Your delicacy is cruelty, your flatteries are poison...you are a murderer. Shall we keep men in a fool's paradise? Shall we lull them into soft slumber. From which they will awake in hell? Are we to become helpers of their damnation by our smooth speeches? In the name of God we will not."
~Charles Spurgeon~

Steve said...

tsuSable....

I can only stand up for myself honestly.

I'll let God stand up for himself... he's more than capable if he so chooses.

And as for us "finishing" anything over on your blog... for those that are interested... go here to read it just to be fair and to see how Sable considers things finished. If you read all of the comments, you can see that I was not alone in viewing your comments toward me and my wife as insensitive, rude and judgmental. I hope everyone will go read this... because I do want to be fair.

You can reread fully there what issue I had with your comments (much like the same way you presumed here about EddieF's wife and his situation). You may be talking about Jesus's existence here and now... but I have no clue how you expect to share about the love of Christ with others when you cannot communicate to them how you empathize with their pain.

So as not to lull you into a soft slumber... let me say it loud and clear... you can quote all the scripture you want, and hide behind the "truth" of the Bible and your "right" to call sin as you see it... you can hide behind the skirt of Jesus with your admonitions... but you are still and remain a stupid church person. We all fall back into those old patterns from time to time.

What am I trying to do you ask???... expose the stupid in church people. Without qualification... without reservation and without prejudice.

I am not angry at you Sable, I was just pointing back to how this seemed reminiscent of our conversation, and I was hoping it would cause you to look at how you handled that one vs this one... and see the similarities and how you may hurt or judge someone on a personal matter and lose the inability to communicate with them in the process.

eddie{F} said...

and see the similarities and how you may hurt or judge someone on a personal matter and lose the inability to communicate with them in the process.
And that was the whole point. She “lost” me when she started judging and pshyco analyzing my wife, and the picture of how she must feel is just about one of the most incredibly insensitive and vulgar gestures anyone has made on this issue. (Excuse my while I go and vomit.)

I have read those comments, and it’s exactly what she did with you. Assumed she understood all the details, reasons and dynamics that went into your life story using one (or two) bible verses. And when she is called out on it, then she cries persecution? Gimme a massive break.

I can speak of for myself (as is evident) but I will not allow some chicken shit to assume what my wife is all about, her character or motives. I am still her protector. And like 4 billion other people I don’t really care what Christians consider “sin” and what not. I don’t even mind that they have a worldview different from mine, but when they start demanding that I must “make a bigger effort” to believe LIKE they do, then needless to say, it gets me going … usually not in the right direction. I am sure if she wants then she can learn from you how to communicate Jesus with a little more tact.